ECatnews Diaspora

Just in case Paul, who runs Ecatnews.com, decides to throw in the towel I created this page as a back-up forum.  The squabbling in the comment section is endlessly entertaining  and unlike Paul I don’t mind adults behaving like children.

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171 responses

  1. Hi there Quax

    Sign me up sport !

    I’ll throw a prawn on the barbie while we get set up LOL !

    Cheers & a great idea- count me in 🙂

    DSM

  2. PS – I hope you enforce serious logins as I am in little doubt that some mischevious folk have multiple logins at eCatNews. I know who I am & proud of it 🙂

    But that may lose a lot of potential posters 😦 ( :0 🙂 🙂 )

    DSM

  3. Always good to have a back up…

  4. Still hope we won’t have to use this. Paul is a good, even-tempered blog host and I hope he’ll keep going. But if we have to cross this bridge than the place here will only be a stop-gap measure. My primary blog is a standalone WordPress installation that allows for more tweaking (such as the editable comments on ecatnews.com). I still have a free domain registration open with my hosting provider and I’d create a more amendable blog environment there (with proper log-in for instance).

  5. Well folks, has Paul thrown in the towel or is he just away for awhile?

  6. Jnewman, good question. He promised to not just throw in the towel like that and the comment section of his wordpress blog has been frozen up before.

    So I think he’s just not paying all that much attention to it at this point.

  7. Maybe the “Lie cat” has transformed (or transmuted?) into a dead cat?

  8. Kinda peaceful here…
    Where can I find balanced discussions about tha’cat now?

  9. After Paul assured us that he wouldn’t pull the plug I didn’t advertise this back-up site anymore, so I don’t think many of the ecatnews community remember it.

  10. Well, it has now been about a week since comments disappeared from Paul’s site. A little mysterious. I would really have expected him to say something if he was giving up; not just go dormant.

  11. jnewman, you are right it is odd. Let’s hope he is OK and just otherwise distracted.

  12. Must admit eCat News was my ‘tar baby’ (couldn’t seem to break free from it). The lull allowed a break & also having become satisfied that Rossi is a modern pied piper, seems like time to move on.

    Cheers DSM

  13. Wow. A cold fusion site where I am not banned! (yet)

  14. Hi maryyugo. I just have to tell you. After I watched the Josephson video, I was a total believer in the ecat. After all, the guy had a Nobel prize. As for how I felt about you, I won’t even go there. Of course at this point, you are the final say in what is legitimate and what isn’t in the cold fusion world as far as I’m concerned. So in your expert opinion, is there anything or anyone out there that looks legitimate to you in this whole business? Is there a chance for a real energy revolution or isn’t there? Are we all just a bunch of dreamers who will still be pumping our gas and paying our electric bills to the coal fired, gas burning, wind supplemented utilities until the day we die? Go ahead maryyugo, just lay it out plain and simple, I can take it.

    1. I have no special knowledge about cold fusion or LENR. I have no idea whether some of the more subtle claims to excess heat are true or not. Is there a chance? Sure. But it’s slim because there is no really good theory to account for excess heat. IMO, all current theories of how cold fusion would work are lame and without adequate evidence. But I am not an expert, by far (!) about theory so it’s just an opinion.

      What I do know about is large claims like those involving kilowatts (or even tens of watts) for long periods. Such claims are extremely easy to check correctly using classical calorimetry methods. It doesn’t require months or years. It isn’t expensive.

      The other thing I know is that liars are most likely scammers.

      I think Rossi and Defkalions are clearly liars and scammers. In my opinion, so are Nanospire with their ridiculous claims. Brilliouin is not encouraging. BLP have been conning for decades. So has Mark Goldes. McKubre isn’t in the least credible. Swartz is just weird. Did you see his strange web site? Miley seems off the deep end as well. He keeps talking about space power systems but has shown no operating generator of any type.

      Celani and the MFMP seem to be honest if misguided. I would like, as has been said by others, to see them move to accurate calorimetry and to using multiple wires to increase their signal to noise ratio.

      The major mystery for me is why people like Josephson, Kullander, Essen, Lewan, and Levi get sucked into such an obvious fraud as Rossi is perpetrating. And how does McKubre end up believing in the bullshit surrounding the Papp engine and according it his time and effort? And then, once in, why don’t these people squawk long and loud when Rossi (and the others) can’t deliver? They will end up looking as foolish as the die hard Steorn supporters who clearly should have known better like the well-credentialed but completely moronic Hugh Deasy for example.

      It’s fun to watch sort of like a train crash. Sort of.

  15. John Milstone checking in. I really shouldn’t, as I’ve wasted way too much time on Rossi and his gadget already. But this story has grabbed on to me and won’t let go. 🙂

    1. Hey John, the interesting part is how con men like Rossi suck in people who really should know better. And even more interesting, as the con continues and nothing worthwhile or confirmatory ever happens, why those same supposedly capable people, don’t challenge the scumbags in public. That’s the part that amazes me. Don’t you think by now Kullander, Levi, Lewan and Josephson realize Rossi is nothing but a crook?

      1. I think Kullander et al are probably hoping everyone forgets about their involvement in Rossi’s dog & pony show.

        Recall that Kullender and Levi, at least, were putting conditions on their comments in support of Rossi (i.e. “If one believes Rossi, then this is huge”), but those comments were never repeated by the True Believers.

        To come out now and admit that Rossi is a fraud is to admit that they couldn’t distinguish between the biggest breakthrough in their field in the past hundred years and a half-ass con man. That *can’t* be good for their careers.

      2. One additional thought…

        Science relies on honesty in order to build on previous work. Scientists can’t continually reinvent the wheel.

        In real science, one is expected to provide all the relevant facts and data, allowing anyone else to replicate one’s work. That (along with things like peer review) are supposed to keep everyone honest. This seems to work fairly well.

        Unfortunately, it fails to protect against those who intentionally flaunt the rules.

        All of the scientists you list (and anyone else involved with Rossi) should have walked away and denounced Rossi as soon as it was clear that he had no intention of allowing anyone else to replicate his experiment.

        But, people are taught to be polite, and to give others the benefit of the doubt. This makes for a more pleasant social environment, but makes it easy for a calculating fraud to take advantage of them.

      3. Greetings, Mary. Your presence here puts a real crimp in the theory that John Milstone and several other characters on ecatnews (including me, I think) are actually you in disguise. Perhaps there are actually multiple people who find it interesting to point out the lack of critical thinking required to buy into the Rossi cult. But then again, that might just be too radical a thought.

      4. Your IP addresses are different. So if you were indeed the same person you certainly put some effort into it 🙂

  16. DSM, always enjoyed your thoughtful comments as well as the more passionate ones 🙂 and can certainly see how ecatnews.com could become addictive. Sometimes spend way too much time there myself.

    Which leaves me at a bit of a quandary. I think there should be a place that allows a free exchange about anything LENR.

    One that captures the history, and plants some clear warning flags, i.e. along the lines what Dick Smith wanted to achieve. I.e. the idea would be to encourage honest research and shine some light on the more shady actors.

    Will see what Paul does with his LENR-news site idea. I think it’ll fill a necessary blog niche.

    P.S.: Mary Yugo, I have a no banning policy unless somebody spams or only spouts profanity, so you are most welcome here 🙂

  17. Where did all the believers go? They are still out there.

    1. I just read Dr. Bushnell things from the link. You know ‘STVLTORVM NVMERVS INFINITVS EST’

      1. Or as they saying goes in English, “Another one is born every day” 🙂

  18. The E-cat is the real deal and Rossi never tells lies. *tosses this out and runs for cover* lol

  19. Hello Mr. Dekant.
    Thanks for the tip.

  20. Thicket checking in.

    I doubt many believers will sign up here. They’ve become disillusioned with Rossi and don’t enjoy having their noses rubbed into their foolishness. Some will learn, some will (or have already) migrated to woo-woo sites, others will go onto their next Fire 2.0 world-changing claim.

  21. Thicket,

    you are probably right. As RonB’s tongue in cheek comment has been pointing out a “believer” commenting here would set himself up for quite a drubbing, given how heavily dominated this thread is now by “sceptics”.

    Popeye’s correct in pointing out that the arc of publications with regards to “anomalous” heat observed with LENR experiments is not indicative of actual progress, but the field is still anything but dead. Rather it’s undead. Zombie science that is easy to utilize by snake oil salesmen, who may, or may not, believe that their is a real effect.

    To me it seems there is good case to keep an eye on any Fire 2.0 “science” that can be exploited this way. I also think there is a need to better understand exactly the entropic heat effects that occur when loading metals with hydrogen of various isotopic composition. I really think after 25 years there should be no more openings for questionable measurements. I have little hope for real LENR but when looking for papers on gas loading thermodynamics I didn’t find a lot, which could very well be because this is considered settled science.

    Anybody have a pointer to some physical chemistry textbooks on the matter?

    1. Henning,
      I love the term Zombie science. My daughter and I are always comparing notes on the “Living Dead” TV series.
      When I was trying to research aspects of H and Ni I wound up at quite a few places to buy the publications and had to just settle for gleaning some information from the preface, I’ve tried to get answers by posting questions on ECN but often had to suffer humiliation at the hands of those that might share their knowledge.

      I’m not sure that non-scientific types that used to visit ECN quit posting because of they stopped having hope that LENR was real but they just didn’t like the abuse.
      It’s pretty obvious that with the lack of professional courtesy shown between some physicists a mere mortal doesn’t stand a chance. I’m thinking the term peer review should be renamed peer rebuke. It’s just too bad that some of the scientists I’ve ran into online don’t want to have a more collaborative approach. (You seem to be the exception since I’ve never read your description of a fellow scientist as deluded or incompetent. ) It’s very possible that I’ve just ran into a few bad apples on the internet. I know that the scientists I’ve worked with over the years in real life didn’t come across as ego maniacs.

      The Quantum Heat team is a fun development to watch. I do worry about the old adage about “too many cooks” though.

      1. RonB,

        In my experience online forums tend to bring out the worst in people, probably a combination of the absence of verbal and auditory cues with the perceived security of anonymity.

        Add to that the peculiarity that physics, for some strange reason, attracts crackpots like no other field. And I mean the real basket cases, who don’t take ‘no’ for an answer, and proselytize with religious furor. The spectrum goes from apparently barely sane individuals like time cube guy to smooth movie makers.

        Physicists get these people in their face all the time, and it tends to makes them cranky.

        But at any rate, I am not really a scientist, I only play one on the Internet. After my M.Sc. in physics I thought learning something more practical would be a good idea and so I went to business school. Now married with three wonderful young kids my IT consulting profession certainly proved to be a steadier career path.

        Physics always remained my passion though.

  22. Henning, you are right that the Internet seems to bring out the worst in people, and probably for the reasons you cite. All it takes is one “are you kidding?” aside by a poster and the fun begins. There are certainly some cranky scientists who inhabit the blogs, but a far more common phenomenon is the angry believer. ECN has been the home of many who are endlessly ranting about “pathoskeptics” and hidden agendas. It is mostly a reaction to skeptics posting detailed technical arguments refuting claims that the supporters have no defense for. Anyway, it all makes for an entertaining spectacle. As I have said before, what I find most interesting is the question of why people persist in believing this stuff. And the most plausible answer always seems to end up being because they really want it to be true.

    1. While reading this comment I was reminded of a quote by my favorite author:

      “One man’s religion is another man’s belly laugh.” — Robert Heinlein

      The LENR fandom certainly supports this quote!

  23. JNewman, ecatnews.com was extremely entertaining because it had a nice balance between the typical forum bickering and well reasoned passionate discussion.

    No doubt true believers are highly vested in the dream of LENR as clean abundant energy. Given humanities predicaments it’ll be no moment too soo for such a technology.

    IMHO the perfidy of con men in this area very much aims to engender conspiracy believes and of course the less scientific background somebody has to bring to bear, the easier this will be accomplished.

    That’s why I think Dick Smith’s maneuver was pretty inspired. Obviously it caused a lot of denial but it very much exposed that there is no high energy density LENR ready to take on this challenge.

    The Quantum Heat team is a nice complementary effort to demonstrate that low energy effects aren’t readily available either.

    Science isn’t supposed to be a matter of believe, that is why I find the zombie state of LENR so frustrating. If there is any real effect (which I doubt at this point but won’t entirely rule out) it should be flushed out clearly. This should not drag on in this undead fashion.

    1. I can’t say that I have previously followed any fringe science topics in any detail, so I don’t know how unique the community of ardent LENR fans is. They do seem to have a remarkable commonality of traits: little or no actual scientific background, a general distrust of institutions of any sort and, as far as I can tell, they all have at least one additional offbeat position (UFO, AGW denial, conspiracy theory, oddball social theories, or at least something.). I don’t recall a single “believer” who otherwise seems like a mainstream individual perhaps with the exception of Ransompw. I’m not sure what his deal is. I think he just likes to argue and to do so with name-calling and hyperbole that he is constrained from doing in his professional life. What is bizarre, however, is the anger and bile that some of these folks have towards anything and anyone who attacks their precious LENR. It amazes me how personally they take it. I think that intense emotional attachment to this flaky stuff is what keeps me following this story. And, of course, ECN is the only place you can see it, since attacking the sacred cow is not allowed elsewhere.

      1. or at least something
        Jeez.. that’s pretty general lol Would that include dropping 2 bucks on the power ball?
        Yesterday while I was digging holes in the rain to try to replace a few fence posts that the high winds had broken off at the ground I was thinking about the term “scientist” and what that exactly means. According to Websters a scientist is “A person who is studying or has expert knowledge of one or more of the natural or physical sciences”.

        So are we all scientists because we are studying the nuclear effect?
        I was picking apples this past fall and all of them always have worms. This has been pretty much the same for years. Every apple has at least one worm. I got into one of the trees and noticed that none of the apples in a certain area had
        any worms at all. When i started to looking at the environment around this portion of the tree I noticed that the Lilac bush next to the tree that had not got trimmed the year before was now pushing through this part of the tree. The Lilac’s always bloom at the same time that the apple tree does. Since I have over a dozen apple trees (all with worms) I will do some experiments next year with the Lilacs to see if there’s an association. I will study the effect of Lilac blooms on the worms population in the apples. Am I a scientist?
        When I was younger and the first reports of high temp super conductors came out I managed to get a high quality ceramic disk and was curious about the effect of the laser light coherence reflected off the ceramic as it passed into its super conducting state. I setup of an experiment using the ceramic after polishing it enough to reflect laser light and then pushed it into low temp with LN2. There was no anomaly. I had my 12 year old daughter with me for the experiments and we kept very accurate notes and wrote up the procedure. Later we were just playing around with the laser (shining it on different objects in the garage) and noticed that when the laser shown on the red top of a WD40 can there was a spattering of the laser light. This resulted in a “sea” of small dots that moved around in response to a small rotation of the head. I noticed that the dots moved in opposite direction from the direction of the turn. My daughter noticed the opposite. We were surprised to find this. My daughters theory was that it was a man/woman thing so I suggested we get my wife and son to view it for more data. We found that it was just her that was the different one. At that point we needed a new theory and after a few more experiments we had what we believed was the answer.
        Were we both scientists?

        any worms

      2. Ron, by all means you are a scientist – not a professional one, I gather, but surely what you were doing was science. And nothing you described falls under the heading of the “or something” I mentioned above. There is nothing flaky about what you were doing.

        If you are an LENR believer (I seem to recall that you are sympathetic but not thoroughly convinced), then perhaps you are another counter-example of having common traits among believers. Like all generalizations, this one is surely imperfect.

        On thing though, I don’t consider reading LENR blogs to be “studying the nuclear effect” or doing science. If one truly wishes to study the subject, they need to work their way up through some textbooks in physics and chemistry and develop enough knowledge to be able to critically assess the literature in LENR. Listening to partisan hacks like Rothwell is not very helpful. What I ridicule are the people who have no scientific background but who have decided that mainstream scientists don’t know what they are talking about with regard to LENR. Their basis for making such a contention is absurd.

        Meanwhile, good luck with the powerball.

      3. I seem to recall that you are sympathetic but not thoroughly convinced),
        Precisely, and moreover my good friend at work who took his BS in Physics but decided to do electrical engineering instead told me that I shouldn’t even get involved in it because it was a pipe dream. He currently holds over 200 patents which is quite a few more than I do, so I do value his opinion. I guess I just got caught up in the controversy.

      4. RonB, I concur with JNewman that what you describe is certainly applying scientific methodology. Now if you document your apple worm lilac findings quantitatively and get them published you could call yourself a proper scientist 🙂

        In my native tongue scientist is “Wissenschaftler”. It is derived from the word “knowledge” i.e. “Wissen” and the verb “schaffen” which means “creating”. So if you create new knowledge and share it, this fits my most basic definition of what makes a scientist.

  24. It seems that Celani has announced that a third party has replicated the effect he observed (with a different setup). 1,16 watt with 0.055 grams of wire. We will have to awair publication. A.

  25. Bettingman, interesting to see what will come of this.

    Quite astounding that Celani posted the slide deck not realizing that this would easily allow to identify the company (link curtesy of spacegoat).

    1. Henning,
      Yes, Defkalion made a similar mistake when that Nasa guy was visiting them. There was wide speculation that they did so on purpose. I will give Celani the benefit of the doubt. I would probably not know how to cover the track myself…

  26. I’ve worked with STMicro for years. They are a quality company in the USA.
    If they are involved that really would make a difference. They are experts at nano-fabrication.

  27. New Energy times is reporting replication of low energy transmutation experiments

    http://news.newenergytimes.net/2012/12/06/mitsubishi-reports-toyota-replication/

  28. I think I’d heard about that but had not seen much on it.
    The news is several weeks old ..” Society LENR session on Nov. 14 in San Diego, Calif.”

    When they claim to have produced gold I bet they’ll get mainstream attention! 😉

    Dec 14th is the STMicro announcement right?
    A glimmer of hope that there won’t just be coal in my Christmas sock this winter.

  29. I posted a link on qh about Constantan wire and differential temperature measurements.
    http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja01861a004

    Would it be possible to lace untreated wire with the Celani version and then use the raw wire to make temperature measurements via it’s resistance change?

  30. Bettingman, when I first looked at this I thought the claim was that they start with Na and get subsequent cascading transmutations all the way to Sm, and if you were to believe this kind of massive transmutation then reaction channels prior to Fe should entirely crowd out the ones far beyond the optimal energy gain.

    But this is probably unfair conjecture on my part, after all Iwamura’s papers are some of the best LENR publications. So they deserve some benefit of the doubt. It is probably more likely that they tested for each transmutation at a time.

    If they accounted for the critical input to further improve control of contamination this may be interesting.

    An actual abstract would be nice, the New Energy Times blurb is not much to go on.

  31. RonB, your raw wire idea is creative and would give you a way to infer for average temp along the length of the wire, but for heat effects it certainly will take good calorimetry.

    1. That’s what I was thinking (for the length of the wire)
      Since both wires will be in the same proximity and the resistance of the wires should both be pretty fixed in relation to their temperature until some anomaly happens, it might be easier to detect an anomaly.

      Robert had asked about the effectiveness of the wire in hydrogen but I’m not sure about that. I would like to think that it would be fine but there’s something called
      piezoresistive effect that could cause issues.

  32. The european cell of the MFMP is live and producing excess heat. Next step should be calorimetry…

  33. Bettingman, thanks for the update. Not exactly sure where the various data points are captured but nice to see how transparent they are with their data.

  34. At this point I am too busy otherwise to spend much attention on the MFMP experiment, but I am wondering if they make some effort to estimate error bars for their collected data an the derived “excess” heat?

  35. http://theatomunexplored.com/wp-content/docs/1carpinteri.pdf

    One of the MFMP members mentioned this report…

  36. I might as well join up here, though I don’t see much changing in the opinion polls.

    The True Believers will be thus until Rossi is hauled away in irons or flees to Argentina. The skeptics will be so until some sound proof is demonstrated and verified. Given the track record demonstrated by BLP and others, the controversy could well outlast me.

    Count me as a skeptic from the very start.

  37. Asterix, I feel your pain. Today the oil furnace didn’t go on and I had to kick start it.
    Another cold winter without our new savior.

    Those of us who have some small measure of hope continue to abide.
    Merry Chistmas

    1. I’m not worried for my own warmth too much, as I have 25 acres of woodland to keep me warm–both with burning wood and cutting, splitting and stacking it.

      But there is the ugly reality that we can’t extend Western-style living standards to all citizens of the Earth without either a breakthrough technology such as cold fusion (if indeed it exists) or a radical reworking of the more affluent people’s lifestyles. Or perhaps facing the more unpalatable answer to quit breeding like rabbits.

      So the dreams of a cheap (or free) plentiful energy source have some closing their eyes and clicking their heels together hoping that they’ll wind up in the Land of Oz, where nobody worries about energy.

  38. Let me declare myself as skeptic. Having followed the E-Cat story since sommer 2011 I thougt at first that could be a pumping process getting energy to transmutate Ni isotopes and giving back the energy reversing the reaction.

    I got the scam evidence from Mr. Krivitt’s report at Bologna Rossi’s lab. My skepticism does not include the fact that under unknown environmental conditions SOMETHING happens when transition elements and Hydrogen are brought together.

    Since february 2012 I have constituted with some friends a humble team trying to research the anomalous heat phenomena related to interactions of Ni and H. Our goal is not to get an energy cell. Simply to understand what happens in such a system.

    Without right instrumentation this task is a very difficult one and we have only our own knowledge, instruments and money.

    But even with scarce resources we had conducted a serie of experiments starting from same amounts of Ni and H at progressive changing conditions i.e. pressure, temperature and irradiation, trying to find what we call a differential behaviour relative to a witness sample.

    Powder Ni obtained mechanically from a single Ni commercial bar.
    H obtained from the same bottle.
    Radiation from a set of wave generators ranging from 50 Khz to 1800 Mhz plus an ordinary sunlamp of which used for seasonal affective disorder plus prismas and colimators.

    Reaction chambers are quarz sealed tubes containing 10 gr Ni powder and pure H at pressures ranging from 80 to 200 KPa. Temperature stabilized between 20 and 25ºC before sealing tube.

    Tubes are completely inmersed about 2 mm below water surface into a 1,5 liter glass container.

    The experiment consist of comparing the water temperature evolution in a tube loaded at pressure X irradiated with different EM frequencies with an identical pressurized non irradiated tube.

    The for us available frequency spectrum is discontinuous but we had no other instruments. A stupid error made us to think that even being conservativ we had gotten an efficiency of 1,4 at certain wavelengths. A vanity pulse made me post in ECN this figure but as said, it was an error.

    What we could notice is that the behaviour of the tubes, radiated and non irradiated
    is different in the range from red to violet with a peak at green. IR and UV have not been tested.
    All tubes are marked with their experimental parameters i.e. pressure, wave lenght and exposition time.

    Next step will be to make a spectroscopical and microscopical analysis of remaining metal for which a near Uni will help.

    Not to say that the processes involved be exoenergetic. Otherwise this is not the goal of our research but at this point I wanted to share with you our little contribution to verify this kind of phenomena, LENR or not.

    I have read that some of the posters here are scientists/ engineers. I hope they will find the sense of our research and perhaps will want to replicate or imagine a set of simple experiments from another point of view. By the way, my point of view not shared entirely by my collegues must I say, is that under certain conditions a chain of nuclear reactions in metal lattice takes place in a locus and the energy generated
    by them destroys the surrounding loci.

    We want to repeat the experiments starting from another Ni bar and another H bottle in the range of visible light.

    Excuse my bad English and have a venturous and happy New Year.

    1. Alex, I’m sure that you’ve taken into account that the formation of hydride from nickel reacting with hydrogen is an exothermic reaction. If not, that should certainly be part of your calculations.

      I suspect that Rossi and others using nickel powder are using chemically-precipitated nickel, usually called Raney nickel. This stuff has been around for decades; one of its commercial usages is in the hydrogenation of vegetable oils to form solid shortening or margarine. This is what made me suspicious of Rossi’s claims from the very outset–the process of using nickel powder and hydrogen at elevated temperatures has been in commercial use for some time. Surely an excess of energy such as initially claimed by Rossi would have been noticed by now.

      See, for example:

      http://ip.com/patfam/en/23835815

      1. Thanks Asterix for your tip.

        We had tried to elude the effect letting the tube to reach ambient temperature and adjusting pressure during Hydrogen loading before sealing the tubes. Previously, air is drained keeping tubes mouth down and insuflating Hydrogen slowly.

        At a fixed H pressure all tubes are reasonably identical. What calls my attention now is the different behaviour regarding EM radiation. Our lab is being reformed and I do not count on going with experiments before Jan, 15. We have commited ourselves to find a correlation between wavelength and some other magnitude having to do with Ni, H or He, as for instance bind energy, Ni lattice dimension, atomic radii and so on. It would be good to find a nice function as: Anomalous behavior = f(lambda), but realize that if found, the anomalous behaviour continues being anomalous until a solid theory could enlight it.

  39. As the ecatnews site seems to finally enter the death throws, it’s time to pick up Jami’s suggestion and create the occasional new thread.

    This one is just an introductory post about the technical limitations of this site in comparison to the original ecatnews blog, but feel free to discuss anything LENR and fringe “free” energy.

    1. I’ll keep an eye on this site, but until someone actually takes delivery of either a Rossi or Defkalion e-cat, I don’t imagine the picture will change much. Until then, we’re just speculating about something that’s probably just made up of whole cloth.

    2. Now that we’re past 80 comments, I can see how this format isn’t going to work very well for me. After the sidebars at the top have been scrolled off, about half the screen is taken up by nothing; and space is wasted by pretty frames around the messages; there’s no clear way to respond to messages posted more than a couple of indents in.

      Perhaps something like phpBBS would serve the purpose better? At least it wouldn’t cost you anything…

  40. ECN is placing new posts amongst posts from about 8 days back. So I switch to Quax backup. Thank you Quax.

    One more day before Defkalion fail to “reveal an industrial prototype Hyperion by year end 2012 or latest Jan 2013″ and prove to be business amateurs and full of bluster at National Instruments Week and at ICCF17.

    I will post tomorrow to present mea culpa to all the ecatnews hard sceptics.

    Meanwhile ECW really has become a saint Rossi religion.
    Bigwilly on January 30, 2013 at 8:25 pm

    I disagree Bruce. The one reason I believe Rossi without certifications, validations and production that he has discovered the secret to Cold fusion and scaled it up by a factor of 10,000 is that he has unflinching integrity and is word is a strong as oak.
    Jarvis Cooper on January 31, 2013 at 12:27 am

    Well said!

    How do brains switch into blind faith mode? Does blind faith have any evolutionary advantages or is it an anomaly of modern social security?

    1. Yeah, it’s gone way past the point where I thought people would simply get up and leave. So, will the Pope canonize Rossi next?

    2. Spacegoat,
      It is also a mystery to me why Rossi inspires confidence in people. I myself am a believer in the Lenr effect (in the milliwatt and watt range), but I find nothing trustworthy in him. I find it strange that other people come to an entirely different conclusion.

    3. It’s watching the psychology of the “True Believers” that keeps me involved with this story. I’m amazed to see obviously intelligent people who blindly believe this story.

      Attributing “unflinching integrity” to someone who has been convicted of fraud several times is astonishing.

    4. I think Bigwilly was actually being sarcastic – only on ECW, naturally, nobody knows the difference.

  41. John Milstone and Bettingman said:
    “It is also a mystery to me why Rossi inspires confidence in people.
    I’m amazed to see obviously intelligent people who blindly believe this story.”

    Well at least this saga has revealed something of interest – the propensity of the human brain for blind belief, for the emotion of magic. There are similarities with awe, except awe is based on observation rather than wishes. There – a new theory: blind belief is awe gone awry.

    1. Well, in defence of believers, I think it’s not only awe but hope. After all we are doing quite a number on our planet with our carbon burning ways. I think many people desperately want, or even need to believe that there is a quick fix that will deliver us from this evil.

      1. Believers do not have a monopoly on hope, and so this cannot be a distinguishing feature. Do believers hope with more passion?
        Blind faith belief is the greatest evil in the world. Carbon is plant food. 🙂

      2. Certainly not a fan of blind faith just trying to speculate what may motivate some believers to cling to Rossi like they do. There seems to be a deep psychological need that he fills.

        And because I am a stickler (my wife calls me worse) I have to correct your last statement: Carbon is animal and machine food – CO2 is plant food. 🙂

      3. There’s no energy shortage–what we have is a shortage of efficient ways to store it and cost-efficient ways to generate it–and the infrastructure to get it to where it’s needed.

        A big concern for me is the steadily growing population, all of whom wants to enjoy “the good life” that the western nations have enjoyed particularly since the end of the second World War. Can 12 billion people all have the “middle class 1980s America” lifestyle? 15 billion? 50 billion? Will natural forces (disease, famine, war) intervene?

        Someone with some real answers there would really have my admiration. St. Rossi is just another “relic of the True Cross” peddler in my opinion.

        I can’t even remember how many “magnet motors” or “gravity engines” that Sterling Allan has featured, without once saying “I’ve been snookered.” I find that attitude troubling–that principles of physics are somehow “suggestions” like some sort of anti-bootlegging legislation that can easily be overturned.

      4. According to the UN population modelling chances are we will not get to 50 billion. But your overall point is well taken. Another thing to consider though, is that European per capita energy consumption is far less than that of Americans, without – I’d argue – suffering a worse lifestyle.

        On the other hand the Chinese per capita energy consumption almost caught up with the European one, while arguably the living conditions of the average Chinese is still far poorer than of the average European.

      5. There are lots of studies as to why that is so. Europe has exported quite a lot of its production capacity – most of it to China. So while we no longer produce the steel for our cars in Europe and only assemble some of them here, we’re still responsible for the emissions (only that these emissions now come from a blast furnace in a Chongqing suburb and not from Dortmund or Leeds). I used to kind of blame Americans for their energy consumption when I was 18 and anti-american because everybody else was, too. But having spent a lot of time there, you kind of understand why most of that is inevitable when you compare it to Europe. 20 miles to the next supermarket, 70 miles to your girlfriend, 500 miles to the next major league team, freezing your ass off in winter and needing a powerful AC running all day in summer to avoid melting it plus a certain abundance of resources somehow has to lead to a lot more consumption.

      6. P.S. I agree with spacegoat when it comes to hope vs. awe. Perhaps it is a general fascination with everything magic (just look at the success of the Harry Potter books). Douglas Adams described it very well in “So long…”. There is that lady sitting in a plane:

        “Mrs. E. Kapelsen of Boston, Massachusetts, was an elderly lady; indeed, she felt her life was nearly at an end. She had seen a lot of it, been puzzled by some but, she was a little uneasy to feel at this late stage, bored by too much. It had all been very pleasant, but perhaps a little too explicable, a little too routine. ”

        She looks out the window and sees Arthur Dent and Fenchurch having a great time naked on the wing high up in the sky.

        “By the time her two inexplicable people finally slipped back off the wing and tumbled into the slipstream she had cheered up an awful lot. She was mostly immensely relieved to think that virtually everything that anybody had ever told her was wrong.”

      7. To be more quantitative, the American per capita consumption is about twice that of Europe (~10 kW compared to ~5 kW). And the Chinese is about half of the European (~2.4 kW). So, you can’t say the Europeans use “far less” than the Americans, and at the same time say the Chinese are “almost caught up” to the Europeans.

        And it’s worth mentioning that in the developed countries, this metric has been essentially constant, and maybe even decreasing slowly since the 70s/80s.

        If one projects a saturation population of 10B (UN most likely scenario), and a stable global average energy consumption near that of the Europeans, then the global (primary) power consumption would be about 50 TW, roughly triple our current usage.

        The equivalent electrical consumption is about a third of the primary consumption, or about 16 TWe. Such a sustained production from a combination of nuclear (breeder), wind, solar, and geothermal is not inconceivable, but will likely require some economic sacrifices, and therefore considerable political will, which is unlikely to exist at least until the Maldives are submerged.

  42. Popeye said “but will likely require some economic sacrifices, and therefore considerable political will”

    What sacrifices do you have in mind?

    It being Friday, 1 February 2013, 02:50:01 PST in Vancouver, I have to say the favoured status I gave Defkalion over the Blogger Clown was misplaced. Failure to “reveal an industrial prototype Hyperion by year end 2012 or latest Jan 2013″ proves them to be business amateurs and full of bluster.

    To mark my stupidity in this mattter I found a cartoon reminiscent of E-catworld:

    1. Would you agree that Defkalion are chronic, consistent liars and that they have never demonstrated properly any working LENR device? Would you agree that they had expected Rossi to provide one and when he did not, they made entirely futile attempts to design one themselves? And then lied some more about that?

      1. Hi marryyugo

        You are consistent in your views and whilst you may prove to be correct, actual evidence available suggests the language you use is inappropriate.

        “chronic, consistent liars”
        They failed on the statement about a prototype by given date. Bluster and business amateurs is all that can be said at this stage.

        “never demonstrated properly any working LENR device”
        However useless you may view them, there is the report by the Nelson character and their ICCF17 paper.

        “futile attempts to design one themselves”
        The world’s strongest material (Starlite) was discovered by a hairdresser with no science background.

        “lied some more about that”
        Impossible to call at this stage.

        Bluster – Yes
        Business amateurs (for failing to live up to CEO statements) – Yes
        Appearance of taking investors for a ride – Yes

      2. Hey Spacey,

        You seem to forget how long and how totally Defkalion has been lying. You may have missed how they claimed dozens of 10 to 20 kilowatt reactors being tested *continuously* back in June 2011! Of course, none of those have ever been seen. Instead, the lame junk they showed Nelson seems to be their current state of the art. Nelson is simply silly. He should have insisted on vastly better tests. He obviously has no clue how to evaluate claims of a kilowatt nuclear fusion reactor. He also doesn’t know what he doesn’t know which, to my eyes, makes him somewhat of a fool.

        Defkalion also claimed testing by Greek authorities but a Greek legislator who checked determined the so-called authorities never heard of Defkalion and no Greek government entity ever tested anything. This was in a local news article. So they lied again (and again and again).

        Using another former NASA person who should have known better (Jim Dunn), Defkalion tried to secure a million dollar investment from Dick Smith. Dick Smith also could get no evidence from Defkalion suggesting that they had anything which worked so instead of biting, he offered his million dollar prize. Defkalion failed to claim it. They’re full of sh*t and always have been, just like Rossi and Nanospire. In my opinion, these people are scammers, nut cases, or some combination of both. More and more people are now arriving at similar conclusions. Ecatnews.com is dead, Vortex no longer talks much about Defkalion and not at all about Rossi or Nanospire and E-catnews.com, while still active, hasn’t said anything credible in two years. And skepticism is slowly finding its way even there, so incredible are the claims compared to the performance (or lack thereof).

        M. Y.

  43. Getting back to the behavior of believers, I think a big part of it is ego/self-esteem. Most of the more adamant believers on these blogs have no scientific training or background. Nevertheless, they have done their “research” and have drawn their conclusions about matters LENR and believe that their analysis is superior to that of the majority of people who are arguably far more qualified to assess the available data. So now their pride and sense of self-worth is at stake. A prime example is the attorney Ransompw who firmly believes that his forays into the Internet coupled with his prodigious intellect puts him in a far superior position to evaluate the status of LENR than any amount of scientific training or professional experience. Such people simply cannot admit that their beliefs are poorly substantiated because it represents a confession of inadequacy or even incompetence. No, it is far easier to try to denigrate the comments and motivations of skeptics who represent a threat to their lofty self image. As time goes on without anything happening to bolster their beliefs, it is remarkable to watch how these folks twist in the wind trying to maintain their positions.

    1. Maybe it is not pride but a sort of brain algorithm revision cost problem. Their brains find it too costly and arduous to revise their world view. 🙂

      1. Kind of like driving a lemon but not being able to afford a new car…

    2. JN, for some, it’s a matter of many years of training. Consider a 9-year-old immersed in a religious inculcation (church school, Sunday school, parents, etc.). If that child says “I just don’t know–it’s unbelievable; prove it, please.”, s/he is likely to be subjected to tirades about being a pagan or going to hell or just plain being evil. Indeed, in certuries past, open expression of disbelief would likely cost one’s life in many places–and still will in some.

      So the message, loud and clear is “Believe and you’re safe. Above all, don’t demand proof.”

      Rossi has already used “God” in several statements, as in “acting as an instrument of God’s will” (or some such words to the effect). That seems to play right into the core of the believers’ mindset.

      1. Of course, for most people, believing in God does not include expecting something divine and miraculous to occur in one’s own experience. Insofar as believing in Rossi has elements of religiosity, one has to wonder whether his followers actually expect something tangible to take place in their lifetimes or are just content with believing that their hero is hard at work doing whatever it is he does.

      2. JN, perhaps you’ve not experienced the Evangelistic brand of Christianity that we have in the US (or perhaps you have). “Deus ex machina” events are the stock and trade of these people, particularly the televangelists.

        Sterling A., in particular, uses belief in the divine and spiritualism in his particular brand of “free energy” evangelism. Today, it’s some group in Brazil preaching love and overunity.

        Have you forgotten Janis Joplin’s “Mercedes Benz” song? Truer to reality than anyone would like to admit.

    3. Talking about the psychology of “True Believers”:
      One former fellow from ecn seems to get doubts about Rossi’s credibility now and sets him a last deadline … or maybe it’s still not the very last one 😉


      “daniel maris on [ecw] February 1, 2013 at 4:30 pm
      Time that Rossi realised he’s in the Last Chance Saloon of credibility. One more “postponement” of the third party reports and I’m definitely off, will have no further interest in his pronouncements unless and until he actually produces something that works.

      1. Our friend Daniel has been threatening to lose interest in Rossi for the better part of a year. Clearly this impending catastrophe has chilled The Inventor to his bones.

      2. Clearly this impending catastrophe has chilled The Inventor to his bones.

        Rossi has his millions of dollars from gullible investors to keep him warm. Which is a good thing, as his E-Cat certainly won’t keep anyone warm!

  44. Meanwhile, on the Papp front (I think that Gary has even quit following them), a couple of tidbits:

    ” We have started preparing our Genset and our Power entry to couple so that we can power our own shop, 24 hours a day and every day for the next XX Years, since we do not know exactly how long it will continue to run without refueling. we will be using the same genset that we showed at Power Gen and CES to do this. We will start posting pictures of this transformation soon. The genset will be in one of our “server” rooms for security, since they are electronically locked and fire proof. ”

    and this (odd) one:

    “Please be advised our websites is now being hosted in Lithuania.

    We join many other US companies who are also migrating to safer havens.

    This move was made because under US LAW any Nut Case can harass and do any other mischief using the RIAA/MPAA DMCA copyright act, causing lost time and legal fees. In the USA you are “guilty till proven innocent” not “innocent till proven Guilty”. as our founding fathers wished. BUT, NOT there, without proof.”

    I don’t see how Lithuania is a “safe haven”, but I guess he got a good deal. What does he need “server rooms” for in his business digs, then? He doesn’t have that many people working there…

    1. I think Rossi is intentionally keeping his “business” in a different country from his “science” specifically to make it much more difficult to be prosecuted.

      Although he claims to be doing all sorts of work in the United States, there is no public evidence of this (and he specifically denied it when government officials asked). In fact, every public appearance of his technology has only appeared in his garage outside of Bologna.

    2. Moving a web-presence to Lithuania is a good idea, generally speaking. Low prices, high bandwidth quotas (not that they’ll ever make use of it), very good administration, well defined SLAs. All the rest is BS, of course. If he’s really got a server room, then putting a not working motor in there is just as good a use as stuffing it with servers he doesn’t need.

  45. Just a friendly reminder that all of this blog is now officially ecatnews diaspora. I will continue to post the occasional LENR tid bit to create new threads. So feel free to spread out if this one feels a bit crowded.

  46. Another Rossi says:

    “Dear Andrea

    1) Are there any progress on the electricity generation?”

    “Dear Luca Salvarani:
    1- is our main focus now”

    This is all so predictable, it gets almost boring. But seeing the believer’s reactions will be interesting. Fast forward six months from now and everybody will give Rossi another eight weeks to finally proof that the solid state cat exists – unless he has announced the wireless cat by that time.

    1. Makes one wonder if it takes some sort of believer amnesia to forget all the things that Rossi spouted over the last 2 years.

  47. Popeye / Jami

    Getting back to the average per capita energy consumption. I believe popeyes’s numbers are from 2008 – thought I recently read an article on Spiegel.de that claimed that the Chinese almost caught up to the average EU energy consumption (about 80%).

    Obviously these kind of comparisons are always flawed. China’s huge manufacturing sector will obviously push these numbers upwards, and what is more critical then the per capita number is the fact that so much of their energy needs are met with coal (hence the deathly smog that many Chinese cities now experience).

    As to the American energy consumption, having lived most of my professional life in North America, I am pretty familiar with it. The larger distances to travel certainly don’t help but it was political decisions that created suburbia and the dismantling of previous public transportation infrastructure. And although there are plenty of temperate places, people chose to live in heat pockets (i.e. most of Texas) where you risk dying of a heat stroke if your AC breaks down.

    Of course the worst offender is my current home Canada. The building standards here are still incredible lax. I.e. think the most efficient windows you can get here would hardly pass muster in Germany and even brand new houses are incredibly drafty.

  48. So this is where all you guys are hiding! Glad to see almost all familiar ECN names here. Sad to report that Ransompw was tempted to join forces of the fairyland. But I’m happy for him there – such a great forum to defend together the technicalities of rossisays.

  49. Glad you could make it, JKW. Posting on e-catworld must be fun. Can’t tell since my only attempt waited for moderation until a week ago and then just disappeared. Don’t know why. I mean it wasn’t like I wrote “Rossi is a crackpot” or anything like that. Thought I’d blend in and merely said I wanted a baby from him – but somehow that didn’t seem to go down very well.

  50. Rossi Ecat Sceptic Top Ten
    1.Lack of any convincing presentation of any product, device or theory.
    2.Dubious Qualifications:Graduate of Philosophy (wikipedia). “Ingegneria Chimica” (chemical engineering) at Kensington University in California, a known diploma mill which was shut down by court order in 2003. (rationalwiki.org)
    3.Announcement of “discovery” at a press conference without publishing anything in peer reviewed journals. They tried to get published, but were rejected by serious journals. (rationalwiki.org)
    4. Independent tests which might have proven a fusion process have so far failed. (rationalwiki.org)
    5.Initial patent application was rejected.(rationalwiki.org)
    6.Dubious past:Convicted of illegal trafficking of waste materials and was arrested for gold smuggling and money laundering. (rationalwiki.org)
    7.Dazzled rabbit in headlights appearance on video when he was caught manipulating controls to the “ecat” during a demonstration.
    8.Appearance as a rank amateur in junior school arithmetic/ science on video “explaining” the COP to Krivit.
    9.Reputation earned as a Blogger Clown, inventing “everything under the sun” in blog form.
    10.Selling licences to the “world’s greatest invention, New Fire”, for paltry sums

    Comments and additions welcome.

    (The above In no particular order)

    I am now thinking hard about a Believer Top Ten. 🙂

    1. 11. Rossi caught lying about his relationship with the University of Bologna.
      12. Rossi caught lying about his relationship with National Instruments.

      Correction:
      6. Although Rossi was exonerated for creating toxic waste dumps (not because he didn’t do it, but because the laws against it were not in force when he was doing it), he was convicted several times for business fraud, including an 8-year jail sentence in 2000, and there is no evidence that those charges were ever overturned.

      1. “he was convicted several times for business fraud, including an 8-year jail sentence in 2000, and there is no evidence that those charges were ever overturned.”

        I’ve already told you this, if you are interested in *final verdicts* instead of journal articles based on preliminary judgments, I report you the dates, the courts, and the sentence numbers:

        – Milan courthouse, sentence 305\2001 (judge: Monica Fagnoni);
        – Milan courthouse, sentence n. 3937 – 179\2001;
        – Monza courthouse, sentence 16\10\2002 (suits 519\91; 80/97; 255\97; 588\97; 642/97; 98/98; 522/99)
        – Milan courthouse; sentence n. 3172 – 14\7\2004;
        – Milan courthouse (second section) sentence 26\11\2004 (suit 3729\200 Judges: Arienti, Cairati, Cucciniello);

        if you are interested in *facts* instead of chatters, go, search and read these documents, instead of speaking without knowing things (as you used to do).

      2. robiD, why don’t you post the links to this information? I’m sure we would all be interested in seeing them.

        Since I don’t speak Italian, it would be a waste of time for me to try to navigate the public records from the Italian court system.

    2. Oops, forgot another one:

      13. Told Florida officials that he was not doing any manufacturing in Florida at the exact same time he publicly claimed he was doing manufacturing in Florida.

  51. Belivers top ten:
    1) Rossi says – it must be true.
    2) There is no way the demoes are rigged.
    3) Rossi says – it must be true.
    4) Rossi says – nothing that contradict any previous “Rossi says”.
    5) We can’t all be wrong.
    6) Rossi says – it is true.
    7) LENR is proved Beyond doubt, so Rossi must be true.
    8) Rossi says – Secret factory on a secret location, with secret employees of course it’s true.
    9) Rossi says – Next generation of the device is much better.
    10) Rossi says – No doubt, it’s true!

    At least thats how it feels 😉

    1. An alternative top ten reasons to believe despite everything we know:

      10 There is no convincing data because not enough people work on LENR.
      9 If people showed convincing data, too many people would work on LENR.
      8 There is no proof that it is a scam so it must be real.
      7 All the good data is secret, so it must be real.
      6 Big Oil and/or the Illuminati are sabotaging the experiments.
      5 Only clowns, snakes and pathoskeps deny LENR.
      4 All 18,000 employees at NASA are working on LENR.
      3 Sterling Allen said so.
      2 A retired NATO colonel told me it was real.
      1 Because I’ve decided LENR is real and that’s that.

    2. Number 1 believer’s reason must be: “If Sergio ‘Holmes’ Focardi and Giuseppe ‘Watson’ Levi didn’t smell a scam – then who am I to judge?”

      1. George said it’s all placebo!

  52. How about… has facility where he conducts his demonstrations which has ‘special features’ not obvious to the visitor… like a large solar panel array on the roof not visible from the street…

    http://goo.gl/maps/lxPkZ

    Solar cells provide DC output… the sort that most clamp meters don’t pick up… although as per e.g. your number 7 it’s hardly necessary to suggest such a sophisticated level of fakery to explain the demos…

  53. That’s certainly interesting that one garage is covered with PV panels!

    The only reason I doubt that it is part of the scam is that there are easier and cheaper ways to produce similar results. Rossi hasn’t actually invested much money in his little scheme, and I believe those PV panels would probably cost more than everything else we’ve actually seen.

    Your point from ECN is valid that a typical clamp-on Ammeter either can’t measure D/C current flow, or won’t unless you set it specifically to do so. It’s possible that Rossi could have monkeyed with the current coming out of the outlets in his garage to produce a “normal” A/C current with a D/C bias. This probably wouldn’t have been detected without an oscilloscope, and AFAIK no one ever made such a test.

    If Rossi did monkey with his “laboratory” in order to fake his results, he certainly wouldn’t be the first free-energy con man to do so. John Keely used such means in the 1880-1890s.

    Rossi could disprove such suspicions if he performed a demo of his gadget in a location he didn’t control, but of course, he has consistently refused to do so.

    1. PersonFromPorlock | Reply

      IIRC, a clamp-on ammeter won’t detect AC current unless the conductors are separated. So why not just use a two-conductor wire in an apparent one-conductor casing, one wire being hot and the other ground? Lots of anonymous round black wire out there with god only knows how many conductors inside.

      Voilla! AC power in and out and no apparent current flow.

      1. For what it’s worth, convicted con man Madison Priest, used modified power strips to carry out his high-tech con.

        He claimed to have a video processor that could compress high-def video enough to send it over analog modems (this was back in the early 90s, when such a technology would be worth a fortune). He had two “laboratories” on opposite sides of a river, where he would conduct “demos” of his technology. At one site, he would dial up the other site, and appear to send high-def videos between the two systems. This convinced such investors as Blockbuster Video, Intel and General Dynamics to give him over $10 million.

        No one ever asked why he had a huge, almost empty spool of video coax cable outside of his “lab”. In reality, he laid the coax cable along the bottom of the river to directly wire the two systems.

        He then had modified power strips at each end, with the coax hidden in the power cords (and in the wall behind the electrical outlets. This allowed him to send the high-def videos directly over high-speed coax cable.

        He got millions from this scam, even though no one ever saw the system “work” anywhere other than his “lab” (sound familiar?).

        http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/050602/met_9326453.html

      2. PersonFromProlock, here is an article that shows how they measured one of the three conductors, and noting that they failed to measure the other two legs of the power line (they assumed that the building wiring was standard, and had not been modified by Rossi).

        http://www.nbcnews.com/id/46342612/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/fraud-claims-over-e-cat-cold-fusion-machine-heating/

      3. @ johnmilstone
        “here is an article that shows how they measured one of the three conductors, and noting that they failed to measure the other two legs of the power line (they assumed that the building wiring was standard, and had not been modified by Rossi).”

        As USUAL you are saying another great BULLSHIT.

        If you want to see how they measured current in EACH wire see here (where you can also find the ORIGINAL pictures for the gullible like you that believes every bullshit written in every article that puts together the word “Rossi” and the word “scam”):

        http://22passi.blogspot.it/2011/06/quattro-gatti-e-sette-persone-2.html

        The funny thing is that the article you mentioned shows only one (exactly the third) of the three original pictures showed in the original article on 22passi, but they knowingly omitted the other two, i.e. they wrote a pure FALSE appositely written for GULLIBLE like you.
        And this kind of rubbish stays on the net forever, without denials or corrections. The same for the stupid and false comments like yours that indeed flooded the web. Do you have a full time job for writing stupidity like that? You write 20% of the comments here and on ECN, does someone pay you for that? Do you have a real work, a real life … a woman outside?
        If you are not paid, it seems you really believe everything you find, without making verify of any kind, and you spend your time reporting this rubbish all around the web (indeed a poor man).

      4. @ johnmilstone
        PersonFromProlock, here is an article that shows how they measured one of the three conductors, and noting that they failed to measure the other two legs of the power line (they assumed that the building wiring was standard, and had not been modified by Rossi).

        As USUAL you wrote a big BULLSH*T but here your only fault is to be a gullible that believes to every foolishness that can be found on the net like that article on nbcnews.com.

        You can find the ORIGINAL pictures showed in that article here

        http://22passi.blogspot.it/2011/06/quattro-gatti-e-sette-persone-2.html

        along with the other two ORIGINAL pictures (a picture for each wire) that the article, knowingly, omitted to show.
        The original article on 22passi shows that they measured the current in EACH wire included the yellow-green one (the ground wire), so in the rubbish article that you have linked there are many FALSITY (written knowing that were falsity) that stay on the web forever, without corrections or denials, and GULLIBLE persons like you (that never take a bit of time to verify informations) every time go to read and spread all around the web.

        And this seems to be your favourite hobby, or maybe not exactly a hobby. Since you write 20% of the comments here and ECN, and this requires a lot of time, I was wondering if you are paid by someone for doing this kind of misinformation. If not, do you have a real job, a real life … a woman outside? Indeed a poor man.

  54. One year ago this week:

    7 Well Known Labs To Test Hyperion

    Lots of talk about whether the tests will prove conclusive, lots of hopeful chatter from the True Believers. No one (as far as I noticed) suggested that a year later there would be no signs that the tests even occurred.

  55. Believer Top One

    1. I realize not everyone believes statements by Rossi, but I am working on the assumption that he is being truthful in his public statements and responses to questions.

    This is a quote from ECW Admin, http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/02/more-responses-to-questions-on-e-cat-manufacturing/

    Believers Just Believe!

  56. Defkalion has their site up…

    http://www.defkalion-energy.com/

    1. Looks like Greenie’s cousin slapped it together.

    2. (Sorry if this is a dup. A couple of my posts seem to have disappeared.)

      FYI, it was one year ago tomorrow (or today, depending on where you are on the globe) that DGE announced that they were allowing “7 well-known” testing organizations to do independent testing and to freely publish their results:

      http://ecatnews.com/?p=2002

      Note that while there was plenty of back-and-forth about what exactly would constitute compelling “proof” that the Hyperion really produced excess energy, no one, not even the most jaded skeptic, predicted that they would not even provide any evidence that any testing occurred.

      And, a year later, there is still no evidence that their big testing that would “prove” their technology, ever happened.

  57. They even put up the old Hyperion “specsheet” – including the famous “pleasure sensor”. Somehow it feels like they lost at least half their staff and a handful of survivors keeps recycling the leftovers – presumably because they’ve got nothing else to do. No jobs for Greek barkeepers in Vancouver?

  58. Is it true that a half of the superdome was powered by a hotcat or was it just beyonce’s hips?

  59. One year ago this week:

    7 Well Known Labs To Test Hyperion

    Lots of discussion on whether the specified tests would conclusively prove that their gadget was legitimate, but not one person was so pessimistic as to suggest that a year later there would still be no evidence that the tests even occurred.

  60. Meanwhile… the guys over at MFMP were enlightened by a mail from none other than Celani himself. He wrote:

    “a) I used 2 wires, one with 2 Layers (called 2L, Monitor); one with usual 400L (called Active);

    b) I made calibration applying power to the 2L wire, under DYNAMIC vacuum. I used power of 10, 15, 20W.

    c) I observed that, although under vacuum, the 2L wire, because nano-diamond like surface,
    started to decrease resistivity.

    d) The effect increased increasing the power from 10 to 15W. At 20W was a LITTLE reverse effect,
    perhaps because quite large temperature into the wire.

    e) Please, see the old document (i.e. picture) I sent You (about 10 days before);

    f) The loading of active wire was VERY LITTLE;

    g) I made several experiments, with pure H2, to increase loading also to active wire (R/Ro dropped to about 0.7).

    h) I repeated, about 1 week later on, the experiment with dynamic vacuum, as at the beginning.

    i) I observed that the so-called excess power INCREASED, because loading of ALSO the Active wire. ”

    Now that’s all very nice of course. But there is practically no information in there other than that he isn’t exactly what you’d call a good experimenter. How inconsequentially anecdotal can a person be and still have respiratory functions – let alone hold a professorship?

    1. I think the MFMP is very inspiring. I just sent them another batch of 500 USD to help them cover the cost. I realize Jami, that you think that they are amateurs, but they fight for a noble cause.

      1. Just to be clear, Bettingman, what exactly is the noble cause they are fighting for? If you mean energy independence, or such, then I have no quarrel with your definition (although I might not think this is the best way to achieve that end.) If your contention is the LENR is intrinsically a noble cause, then I think you are tilting at windmills.

    2. FWIW, David Roberson is reporting that his analysis of the MFMP test results show zero excess energy:

      http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg76356.html

      I’m not sure if his model is correct or not, but this does indicate that the results seem to be compatible with a lack of any LENR reactions.

      1. Yes John, I have seen that. Like you I can’t judge his model. I hope the new measurements will make clear whether there is excess heat energy. The current method they use has too many uncertainties, as the MFMP admits themselfs.

      2. I hope the new measurements will make clear whether there is excess heat energy.

        Thank you for that! That is the proper standard. Unfortunately, the “fans” (as well as too many of the LENR researchers) start with the assumption that LENR must be real, so therefore any experiment that fails to show results must be wrong. They refuse to even consider the possibility that it’s the rare and non-reproducible positive results that might be wrong.

      3. John,

        You might be interested in this quote from the MFMP blog:

        Quote:
        David Roberson 2013-02-15 21:14
        Nice step to evaluate guys. My best fit, which is quite good, suggests that we may have .8 watts of excess power during the first 2000 seconds. After that time, the power slowly rises to about 1.1 watt as calculated by using the special calibration values.

        I suspect that we need to review the pressure change as related to the calibration since that appeared to have an effect on the earlier step.

        Like before, this run was with FC0103 data: my download stamp:2/15/2013 , 17:34 US East Coast.

        The curve was fairly smooth rising and without any major variations from the predicted function. There is minor variation where the temperature appears to divert plus and minus about 1/2 degree C on the rise, but this might be noise since it is not obvious.
        End Quote

        By the way, I still think we should wait for better calorimetry before coming to any conclusion.

      4. We will see. I admire that the MFMP is doing their work publicly. I doubt they will ultimately find anything, but if they do find something the consequences will be huge.

        The problem with their work (so far) is that sticking a couple of thermocouples on the gadget is useless to detect excess power of 1-2%. Proper calorimetry can nail this down, but no one seems to do this (at least not publicly). Note that Rossi was able to claim excess power of 600% at least in part by misplacing his thermocouples.

      5. John,

        I understand from their blog that the MFMP is planning to use better calorimetry. I hope it has good quality.

  61. I think the cause is to prove (or disprove, but they admit that they are biased) that there was/or is indeed an excess energy in the Fleischman & Ponds type experiments. So I think the cause is to improve our scientific understanding of the world and the laws of nature.

    1. … which could be said for many (possibly most) scientific endeavors. But you’re right, of course. Discovering a new energy source would probably be very beneficial for all of humankind. It comes down to how realistic one believes the outlook for success is – and there we probably differ (which is why I prefer donating to “feed the world” kind of causes – flawed and short-lived as most of them are).

  62. Ah yes, I also recently sponsored a kickstarter project with respect to a vertical farm in Wyoming. Also a good cause!

    1. Vertical farming… Yes, a venerable cause. Perhaps it will work if we can power the giga-lux lights to run photosynthesis with Cellani cells? Nah, we still need the evil coal to reduce that pesky ore to metal and build those skyscrapers.

      1. In case lenr works, why would anyone be using coal for that?

      2. You are right, Bettingman. If lenr works there is nothing to prevent it from smelting iron, producing food and running space ships. We are 24 years behind with the technology.

  63. Damn. This place is a pubescent shadow of ECN. Boring posts. No
    AlPretenza, Col. Xarov, DSM, Noman… Wait, is that…”Danny Boy” I’m hearin on the pipes? Quax said he doesn’t mind adults behaving like children. But this place is deader n’ a coffin nail. RIP ECN – you were the tteets.

    1. Well, the same situation for all e-cat blogs: The longer this farce goes on with always the same empty promises, the more early “believers” silently fade away.
      Just have a look at old ecn posts and comments, then you will notice how many earlier Rossi proponents (who used a very harsh tone towards sceptics) have vanished from the scene in the meantime. No wonder – even for “true believers” it’s getting hard to rationalize Rossi’s behavior and “Rossi’s says”. Only a few ones still try to explain Rossi’s sloopy and unconvincing demonstrations as intended deception, with the purpose not to drag too much attention on his invention:
      http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg76434.html
      An excerpt from that post:
      If Rossi had lifted a finger to insert the other probes a short distance away in the outlet flow, and taken a moment to insert an SD card, his results would be FAR more convincing. Two minutes of effort. I told him to do this! I and others gave Rossi a list of things he should do to improve his demonstrations. He ignored us. He is a smart person. I assume he did a lousy job on purpose.

      Well, this are recent words from Jed Rothwell, who frequently gets invited to give presentations on international cold fusion conferences.
      I’d like to say, that doesn’t speak in favor for the whole cf- community.

      Btw: Since you seem to be familiar with the characters who have posted on ecn, I presume you have commented there as well. May I know the nick-name you have used?

      1. Note that today, there is no article on ECW’s home page that relates to either Rossi or Defkalion, as far as I can tell.

        I don’t know if it signifies anything concrete, however.

      2. Yep – looks like this was it for “free energy” for another twenty four years or so. Even Sterling Allan has gone back to promoting stuff based on its “healing effects” rather than over unity, Ed Storms publicly questioning votes for Miley funding based on lack of evidence that his generator works at all, Rossi going on based on nothing but thin air, an occasional blogpost and patient licensees, Defkalion and Kresenn simply sitting it out and MFMP begging for donations so they can play around with nickel powder (“it is fun…”). Compare that with the situation 18 months ago and you’ll have to conclude that the affair is pretty much over (apart form the religious aspects). About time, too.

      3. Rothwell has made earlier statements that he absolutely believed that the E-Cat works.

        I wonder whether he’s trying to back off of that position, or whether he’s trying to rationalize the very irrational and conspiratorial theory that Rossi is intentionally trying to appear to be a fraud because, somehow, that makes for good business?

      4. My observation is that these scams go through cycles. They spend several months maintaining a high profile (when they collect money from gullible investors), then “go dark” for a few years (when they spend the money). Then they repeat the cycle.

        Rossi’s big challenge will be when all of the “franchises” he sold expire without any sign of a working E-Cat (2 years from signing, IIRC). I doubt he will be able to keep this going beyond that point, but Rossi has proven to be very clever in keeping this scam going (i.e. getting a meaningless “safety” certification for his shipping container).

    2. Hey, never said this place can, or is meant to live up to ECN. I am just offering the ECN community a place to hang out and make points that may get censored on other LENR/Ecat blogs.

      Just ever so often will throw out a short post to offer a new thread, but this is not my main blog, I actively try to not get sucked into this fringy stuff too much. After all there is plenty of interesting solid science to write about, and that what I do with my precious little spare time at my main blog.

      1. admin, thanks for opening up this site. If nothing else, it allows me to keep up without having to having to wade through the sewage at ECW.

  64. Yes, agreed, I also think it has added value.

  65. Today’s JONP exchange regarding hot cat
    Q: 3. Are you expecting significant new changes coming from your continued research?
    A: 3- yes: the gas stream is growing up seriously.
    The “gas stream” is hot air presumably. With so much of it Rossi will soon achieve lift off and sail away into the blue.

    1. I trump your steam JONP claim with this energy and manpower JONP claim:

      “Pekka Janhunen (ECW)
      – On JONP we are told (partly thanks to Admin’s questions) that the HotCat module is at stable design level up to 600 C, it currently takes 5 man hours to make, and with their current subcontractors they could produce thousands per day (i.e. over 3 GW per year thermal).”

      I win hands down.

      Maybe we can come up with a Rossi form of Bridge bidding (the card game) . My father used to study thick books on Acol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acol.

      Rossi bidding must address a score of licensees and fifty or so ECW Believers. Unlike Acol, where bidding starts low and communicates with precision and sophistication, over multiple rounds, Rossi bidding starts at the extreme end in one simple round. Maybe an ECND Bridge player could try out Rossi bidding and see how it goes.

      1. Ha. Take this…

        “…so I just put down to work, making things I suppose useful for Mankind: that’s the sense of my existence…”

        In a way one can’t argue with that. He’d be on food stamps if it wasn’t for his scams… or, worse, feature as a permanent guest on some bible tv program. So getting him off the street is definitely useful for mankind.

    2. A suggestion for the e-catworld.com crowd (for the case someone from ecw visits this site). – Following up your “big” success in supporting the George Mileys LENR petition (347 votes in total) and the “we the people” LENR petition (currently 684 votes, only 99316 more to go), why not start a campaign to speed up the e-cat certification?

      Mr. Acland could ask Rossi on JONP: “Who is the organisation/group/person (UL?) in charge to release the e-cat safety certificate”, and all of the customers who pre-ordered e-cats (according Rossi: half a million, status July 2012) could send those certifiers an e-mail, urging them to speed up their work…
       
      Why is Mr. Acland instead only asking Rossi “soft” questions like that ones:

      Frank Acland
      February 10th, 2013 at 8:15 AM
      Dear Andrea,
      If you don’t mind, I have a few questions regarding the hot cat manufacturing.
      1. Are the hot cat plants under manufacture gas driven, electricity driven, or both?
      2. Approximately how many reactors can be manufactured in a day at the moment?
      3. Approximately how long does it currently take to build a a hot cat plant?
      4. How many people are involved in the manufacturing of reactors and plants at the moment?
      Many thanks, and best wishes,
      Frank Acland
       
      Andrea Rossi
      February 10th, 2013 at 9:39 AM
      Dear Frank Acland:
      1- the Hot Cats can be driven either by electric power or gas, but also a hybrid system is doable
      2- with the outsourcing network already organized, if necessary we can manufacture thousands per day, if necessary
      3- one module of 10 kW take 5 man hours, right now, but with a robotized line this number can be riduced to less than 1 hour
      4- it is very difficult to answer, because manufacturing is made by many persons, considering our employees and our suppliers. Answer 3 gives you the work force necessary to manufacture.
      Warm Regards,
      A.R.

       
      BTW: This “Rossi says” means, that about thousands of workers are somehow “standby/available” for e-cat production.

    3. A suggestion for the e-catworld.com crowd (for the case someone from ecw visits this site9. – Following up your “big” success in supporting the George Mileys LENR petition (347 votes in total) and the “we the people” LENR petition (currently 684 votes, only 99316 more to go), why not start a campaign to speed up the e-cat certification?
      Mr. Acland could ask Rossi on JONP: “Who is the organisation/group/person (UL?) in charge to release the e-cat safety certificate”, and all of the customers who pre-ordered e-cats (according Rossi: half a million, status July 2012) could send those certifiers an e-mail, urging them to speed up their work…

      Why is Mr. Acland instead only asking Rossi “soft” questions like that ones:

      Frank Acland
      February 10th, 2013 at 8:15 AM
      Dear Andrea,
      If you don’t mind, I have a few questions regarding the hot cat manufacturing.
      1. Are the hot cat plants under manufacture gas driven, electricity driven, or both?
      2. Approximately how many reactors can be manufactured in a day at the moment?
      3. Approximately how long does it currently take to build a a hot cat plant?
      4. How many people are involved in the manufacturing of reactors and plants at the moment?
      Many thanks, and best wishes,
      Frank Acland

      Andrea Rossi
      February 10th, 2013 at 9:39 AM
      Dear Frank Acland:
      1- the Hot Cats can be driven either by electric power or gas, but also a hybrid system is doable
      2- with the outsourcing network already organized, if necessary we can manufacture thousands per day, if necessary
      3- one module of 10 kW take 5 man hours, right now, but with a robotized line this number can be riduced to less than 1 hour
      4- it is very difficult to answer, because manufacturing is made by many persons, considering our employees and our suppliers. Answer 3 gives you the work force necessary to manufacture.
      Warm Regards,
      A.R.

      BTW: This “Rossi says” means, that about thousands of workers are somehow “standby/available” for e-cat production.

  66. Also, in today’s ECW, it’s reported that Mr. R is slipping the delivery date of his Hot Cat:

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/02/projected-hot-cat-delivery-date-slips/

    The comments, thus far, are generally not kind.

    I still want to see what one of his 1MW “old cat” customers says.

  67. Meanwhile… our old friend 123star has pitched in at MFMP, telling them (rather politely, i thought) that their calorimetry isn’t worth shit… and gets the usual “yeah, well, whatever,… but we still think that…” returns. In a word: LENR science. No wonder Celani, Piantelli and the rest of them don’t follow MFMP’s example of conducting experiments out in the open. Free from the pressures of peer review in decent journals, they probably got used to working in ways which would inevitably prompt lots of stunned disbelief at the details of their methodology and hence chose to keep them hidden behind commonplace anecdotes in mercifully short and inconsequential papers.

  68. Unfortunately, looking at the number of recent posts, this forum seems to be nearing its end just like the original one. I do appreciate Quax’s intent to provide a space for the die hard ones for a free exchange of ideas, arguments, and beliefs, but it’s time to admit the truth. How much longer can we dwell on reiterating the nonsense of the scam, the non-materialization of the product, the crappiness of Rossi’s flamboyant blog farts. What we lack here is the fresh air of true believers, with their eagerness to recycle again the quarter century artifacts of cold fusion. They all gradually drifted, some to join Acland’s site, where folks lately compensate by immersing themselves into off topic ideas like robotics and socialism, possibly to fill the gaping psychological cat hole. And at the same time our beloved Andrea is more productive than ever at his blog, alas in the subject of ethereal philosophy, rather than realism. Maybe it’s an old infatuation of his while he was browsing PhD in Kensington University. But its time to move on, already.

    1. JKW the unique blend of believers and sceptics that ECN had seems to be missing here. And my call for the best papers seems to have seriously dampened any enthusiasm 🙂

      At any rate I just posted on the latest commercial venture in the LENR space, maybe this garners some new interest.

      I don’t know a whole lot about George H. Miley, he always struck me as a fairly level headed LENR researcher, so I am not quite sure what to make of his move.

    2. Probably a reason why there are so less comments is because the system blocks (all?) of the comments. – I did it with replys I wrote before.
      This time a try a slightly different Nick-name and a new e-mail address.
      Lets see it that works!?

      1. Frank, thanks for letting me know about the comment issue. Wasn’t aware of this. As this blog is hosted by WordPress.com I have not a whole lot of control over these settings, but will check if maybe the spam filter is acting up.

      2. The spam filter was full of comments that shouldn’t have been blocked. Restored them all now. Will have to keep an eye on this. Beging to understand why Paul was complaining about the the time he had to spend on administrative work for ECN.

      3. Thanks for your efforts!

        “Coincidentally” from the same time on when the spam-filter on this blog blocked all my postings, it’s also impossible for me to comment on ecn.
        How does someone automatically get blocked? – If a Nick-Name gets automatically blocked (forever) in case anyone posts (under that Nick-Name) a coment which includes some offending words (like fu**, via*** etc) then it would be too easy to “knock out” an unwanted poster.
        If the spam-filter checks the e-mail adress of the ones it intends to block, then its probably more difficult to “silence” an unpleasant poster, but for a skilled IT-guy probaly not impossible …

      4. Frank, if your email is flagged as spam on one WordPress site chances are they will also be filtered out on any other blog hosted by WordPress. Most of them use the same filter software Askimet (owned and operated by the WP makers). On my main blog I never had issues with incorrect filtering, but then it doesn’t cover anything as controversial as LENR.

        What probably happened is that admins on other LENR sites, rather than deleting your comments, marked them as spam. This was then fed back into Askimet’s database and hence you were automatically filtered here at the same time. Very not nice of them. It is one thing to disallow some comments on your own blog, but marking something as spam, when it is not, has wider repercussions and is significantly more sinister.

  69. Hopefully we can all keep watching the ecat death spiral here. I swore on all that is Holy that I would never, ever again follow this thing but….

    “Hello, my name is Tony2.”

    “Hello, Tony2!”

    Tony2

    1. Maybe we should name this “A place for recovering Rossiholics”.

      I’m not sure why I ever followed this story. I have never followed a “fringe science” story before (i.e. traditional perpetual motion machines, bigfoot, UFOs, etc). The only reason I can imagine is that Rossi’s scam looks just enough like legitimate science to have fooled me, at least for a short time. As soon as I saw the company Rossi was keeping (Sterling Allen, et al), I recognized the stench of fraud. But by then I was hooked.

      Meanwhile, I saw a story just the other day of a Bigfoot “True Believer” who claims to have shot and killed a bigfoot. I’m sure that the body will be properly examined by scientists any day now. Or, if not, it’s because the Illuminati and “big science” that is suppressing it!

  70. JM,

    You were never fooled. Not for a minute. I started watching based on the Genesis World Energy scam. The parallels just can’t be coincidence. The instant I saw AR promising donating profits for children with cancer, I knew, and still know now, that we were dealing with the most callous fraud extant.

    Tony2

  71. Some fresh Defkalion hype:


    We in Defkalion feel our responsibility towards such an important goal providing two important “tools” towards such a new strategy materialization:

    1. We have allocated already funds for common R&D and theoretical interpretation to specific distinguished members or teams of the existing “LENR” research community, providing them full access to our experimental data and resources. Hopefully the expected results of such “focusing to objectives” activities will start showing up in papers within 2013.

    2. We emphasized on our efforts to create alliances with powerful industrial partners that wish to take advantage (for their own reasons) of the results on the evidenced progress in our basic R&D, towards building new applications on their field, based on the results and the progress of our core technologies R&D that focus (at this stage) on the preparation to license of the Hyperion first generation product designed for household, agricultural and light industry uses only. One such new application research center (in Milan, Italy) is already under preparation whilst 4 more are scheduled for 2013 in different geographical regions.

    February 17, 2013 at 1:21 PM
    http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2013/02/strategic-principles-of-lenr-and-their.html

    The fact is, whilst the hype continues, none of us will completly thow in the towel of interest in the subject.

    1. This almost sounds like a cry for help, as in “Please someone, please find an LENR process that works, so we don’t look like the scammers that we seem to be.”

    2. Of course no names are given for the members of the LERN community bij Defkalion’s CTO. No address of the Milan site. And why do they think any government will allow any “Hyperion” to act as a home heather device while nobody knows exactly how it works?

  72. It’s all bullshit. I tried to ask JH about the Greek government testing announced on the Defkalion forum back in June 2011 and my post was promptly censored and deleted. Far from running an open discussion, Peter Gluck is deleting any incisive questioning of Defkalion. I don’t think he’s in on the obvious investor scam that this company’s claims seem to me to represent. However, I think he’s a coward and has no backbone to defend his idiotic views about the company’s moronic claims.

    Take a look at the comment section (scroll down or search for “john”):

    http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com/2013/02/strategic-principles-of-lenr-and-their.html?showComment=1361173388390#c165122948156443155

    1. No surprise there. Dare pointing out their past lies and your motives will be questioned – as if that would make the lie go away. A tried and true formula in belief systems, used since man began to use words.

    2. I think Peter Gluck is an honest man, I hope his reputation will not be stained by DGT, But I fear for the worst.

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